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CCP Prism X
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C C P Alliance
1488
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Posted - 2014.05.06 13:05:00 -
[1] - Quote
So.. as the former API guy and member of Team Bifr+¦st, the team that made the wormhole space; You were never supposed to be able to see this data. If it's not in the client it cannot be in the API because the same information should be available to everybody playing this game. Nobody is supposed to get a decisive advantage because they have access to data other people have no means of availing themselves to.
The fact that we screwed up and forgot to sanitize the API calls does not change that design.
Now stop being mad at FoxFour, he's a delicate lotus blossom. You can be mad at me for forgetting this in the first place when I was creating WH Space and thus giving you false expectations. Please direct all angry rants to [email protected].
Thank you and have a nice day!
CCP Prism X
Programmer
Team Gridlock |
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CCP Prism X
C C P
C C P Alliance
1488
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Posted - 2014.05.06 13:21:00 -
[2] - Quote
Miriam Hanomaa wrote:stuff
By that logic we should never change anything in EVE. No expansions, no releases, no changes. As changes would always be changing something that is already a part of the game (and in most cases were supposed to be a part of the game at some point in time unlike these stats).
I'm sorry, I understand you don't like this change. Personally I don't like many changes that have happened to me. Growing old and fat isn't terribly exciting I can tell you. But the only alternative to constant change is stagnation and if you've tasted stagnant water you know that isn't very desirable!
CCP Prism X
Programmer
Team Gridlock |
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CCP Prism X
C C P
C C P Alliance
1490
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Posted - 2014.05.06 13:33:00 -
[3] - Quote
Miriam Hanomaa wrote:When you make such changes, it feels a bit weird that you do it in a forum post deep down in this forum, and not in a devblog.
No argument here.
Just because we can push things out quickly for the API now doesn't mean we always should. But there's also the counter-point to that. Since we can we should in some cases. But at the very least this should probably have been posted in a new topic here.
But that doesn't change the fact that no info should be available in the API if it's not available through the client. That doesn't change even if we forget some data for a decade or two. That has always been one of the most important rules of developing the EVE API.
CCP Prism X
Programmer
Team Gridlock |
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CCP Prism X
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1490
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Posted - 2014.05.06 13:51:00 -
[4] - Quote
Valterra Craven wrote:So um here's an idea, instead of taking a feature away that almost all of these people use (and when I say people I am NOT talking about myself since I have literally never been inside an icky wormhole), you add a feature and make the data available in the client.... that way everyone wins.... or you could continue down your current road and **** people off for no reason. (I already know which road you are going to take)
You're being silly.
CCP Prism X
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CCP Prism X
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1495
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Posted - 2014.05.06 14:58:00 -
[5] - Quote
Nitrah wrote:I am more than a little offended that you are being so flippant about a major major MAJOR change to the quality of life of every wormhole resident in the game.
I believe you misunderstood me, sir. The post I quoted was silly in my opinion. It is silly to propose that mistakes in the API should kick of a design change in EVE proper rather than be fixed in the API (that does not mean that said end result is silly, just the logic). It's silly to offer a solution only to state offhand that you will not be listened to. It's just a silly way to initiate a dialouge as you're basicly saying you do not want one. It's silly to be rude-ish (open to opinion and interpretation) to people you want listneing to you by claiming they're just trying to make your life difficult or do not know what they're talking about. When people behave silly around me in real life I tell them I find their behaviour silly. They can then chose to ask me what I mean or simply ignore the statement. At least they'll know why I'm no longer engaging them even though they do not agree with my assertion.
I fully understand that this changes things for some people so I'm absolutely not saying that any claims that this changes things are silly. Just that this specific post struck me as silly. No need for you to get offended on Valterra's behalf (unless you want to, then it's your right and I have no intention of infringing on that right).
CCP Prism X
Programmer
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CCP Prism X
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1503
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Posted - 2014.05.06 15:36:00 -
[6] - Quote
Nitrah wrote:I am not offended on his behalf. I am offended on my own, thank you very much. Quite frankly, the collective "you" do not appear to know what you're talking about. In the last few pages, you have said that you don't have any devs who live in WH space and then do some sort of handwaving about how this will somehow affect primarily log-in traps.
I repeat since it appears you didn't grasp my point the first time: My entire corp, and I would hazard to guess no less than 95% of WH PvP corps uses this functionality every single day, day in and day out, for the last 5 years. In the over two years I have lived and hunted here (and I do it often enough to teach the class how to do it not only for my corp but for eve university as well) I can count on no hands the number of times I have set up a log on trap, or thought it was needed. Not to say it doesn't happen, but is way in the minority of things which drive WH PvP. Tracking the NPC API is one of the only ways to know if your constantly changing neighbors might be coming online soon, or if the chain you have should just be rolled, and the assertion that the information is somehow only available to the elite few is patently false. See dotlan or eveeye for proof.
Making this change is a major decision and it is insulting that your dev snuck the notification that it basically had already been decided 10 pages into a random thread instead of dev blog, discussion about the possibility, bright flashing lights, alert alert.
What do logoff traps have to do with data availability consistency? Are you confusing me with someone else?
I repeat: This is not data you have access to except through the API. Hence it should not be in the API. This goes for all data returned from it. The API is allowed to make your life easier, but it's not allowed to expose information you have no access to elsewhere.
If the lack of this information is causing you excessive grief that you need addressed then you're asking for a design change in EVE Online, the spaceship game. I'll freely admit that I, as a framework programmer, am in no situation to judge design suggestions on a professional basis. That's why I'm trying to refrain from passing judgement on any ideas proposed here. But whilst the data is not available for you in the client it cannot be available in the API.
That being sad I can fully sympathize if you feel like WH space lacks the tools to be all it can be. If you are relying on a third party tool to enjoy the game because the client is lacking: Well it's a situation you shouldn't accept quietly. But the API is not a backdoor to effect game design changes, and a programmer (me and FoxFour when he has his API hat on) is not the right person to make game design changes.
So I hope this explains at least that we're not doing this just to be difficult and make you people feel offended. But if that's still your opinion I'm afraid we'll simply have to agree to disagree on this.
CCP Prism X
Programmer
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CCP Prism X
C C P
C C P Alliance
1506
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Posted - 2014.05.06 17:21:00 -
[7] - Quote
Locking this temporarily to merge the discussion to here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4558401#post4558401
See ya there! 
CCP Prism X
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